Walking Through Myth: Robbert & Frank Frank & Robbert on Shared XR Experiences

00:00:01: When it comes to creating truly special shared experiences with XR, there are probably very few people in the world who have thought about as deeply as the guest in this episode.

00:00:10: They take us on a hike through the forest into an almost mythical world centered around The Tree of Life.

00:00:15: For us I think that technology is not about creating futuristic stuff That has nothing to do or everyday reality.

00:00:24: It's more about recreating This amazement for What is reality?

00:00:30: We

00:00:31: want to connect people.

00:00:32: There's no winning, there's nobody who can celebrate that they're the winner and others are

00:00:38: losers.".

00:00:55: Hi!

00:00:55: Welcome back to New Realities – the podcast by WonnieNein & XR Bavaria.

00:00:59: In this podcast we introduce you two new realities projects ideas concepts and products in virtual augmented into mixed-reality or simply put an extended reality.

00:01:09: My name is Wolfgang Keller, I'm Editor-in-Chief of WONDININE and today's guests are two artists who work together in a very unique way.

00:01:16: Robert et Frank or Frank & Robert are Belgian artist duo.

00:01:20: their work includes visual art performance film installation theater end of course XR.

00:01:25: they grew up together and later studied visual arts together at Ghent And since then They have built a creative practice that mixes humor strong images and big ideas.

00:01:34: Their work often invites people to slow down, look closer and ask questions.

00:01:38: And connect with each other!

00:01:41: I'm very happy to welcome Robert & Frank on the podcast.

00:01:45: Robert & Franck & Robert, Welcome to New Realistic Podcasts.

00:01:49: Great to have you here for our show!

00:01:51: Hello yo yo

00:01:52: yo!

00:01:53: Now as we are in XR Podcast there's many out there who already know your works.

00:01:58: but before diving deeper into some of their projects... For those that may not yet know it How would you describe what to do?

00:02:07: because there are some terms that describe your work, like XR immersive theater participation art.

00:02:14: You also use a name called Table Dialogues and I guess if we just hear those words people might imagine very different things.

00:02:21: so maybe from your own words how will you describe it?

00:02:25: We're...I think..we like make stuff.

00:02:29: So were makers And were also storytellers who liked Yeah, work with people.

00:02:36: Yes we like to collaborate.

00:02:38: We are an art duo since the very beginning.

00:02:42: So I think that's really at a core of what we do That it is not about one individual.

00:02:48: It´s about connection With other people and About The kind Of magic that arises when you start to ping pong with ideas And concepts with a great conversation.

00:03:04: You start to discover things about yourself, about the world you live in and

00:03:09: we choose our medium always in function of what we want to do and what we wanna tell.

00:03:14: so for some people We are drawers For other People were painters for Other people we Are digital engineers.

00:03:22: it all depends.

00:03:24: that leads me directly To my next question because your making stuff as he said.

00:03:28: So one Of The technologies or tools to use for creating your work is XR.

00:03:36: You are storytellers, you combine it with different techniques media performances.

00:03:41: but what drew you using XR as a medium?

00:03:45: What do want people experience?

00:03:49: I think the promise of doing magical things.

00:03:56: I think this medium is very much a magical medium where you can transform your experience of the world and your abilities.

00:04:07: You could say it's also quite hallucinatory, changing your perception in a very tactile way.

00:04:21: Since we like to tell stories and build universes, create spaces of wonder you very quickly end up wondering about possibilities of XR.

00:04:34: And for us... We had been making theatre pieces where were using all the tools in The Magician's Hat To Create Illusions where the floor would open up, and under the floor there'd be a giant lake.

00:04:53: Not real lakes of course but you heard this sound when I came out from that hole... ...I was completely wet for example on stage or there were little red balls which started to roll around on stage Just independently, like magically.

00:05:11: Like an atom just flying around stuff where we would be using physical things and try to create this awe This wonder about altered states of reality.

00:05:26: And then We wanted to create a world Where not only us on stage with experience is magical interactions and other people would just be sitting, looking at the magic being passive you could say.

00:05:43: Being observers.

00:05:45: we wanted them to become participants in this magical realm right?

00:05:51: So that's when we started to create smaller scale theater works where we invited the audience come along on a journey And then we really dived into this XR medium in theatre.

00:06:09: For us, it's not unlogical to do that because when we were students... We had a video art collective called Por Actif.

00:06:16: Active Port and active harbour with two friends Christian and Jimi Hendrix.

00:06:23: These guys travelled alot so we joined them went to Hong Kong we went to Thailand.

00:06:32: Back then, when we had to travel.

00:06:34: We had to take a physical USB disk like the USB stick.

00:06:39: So for us it's... It's big gap between traveling in the physical world with a USB and bringing The video art magic to people.

00:06:49: And now its little bit the other way around.

00:06:52: You create something digitally People upload it They see it in VR.

00:06:56: When you join people together In this digital realm I think We also just love the magical part of technology.

00:07:05: Technology has changed over the last fifteen years, lost twenty years... It's incredible!

00:07:11: You focus on I think right away from where you started even before XR on collective experiences so not or experiences for individuals.

00:07:21: Now, if you look around what's happening in XR of course there are some social VR experiences.

00:07:26: There are some projects on theaters going on but most of the works that we see also on festivals Are still like single user Experiences focusing on individualized experiences.

00:07:37: But do kind of argue almost the opposite That XR is a tool For group formation and collective presence.

00:07:44: Is it just your approach?

00:07:46: Do think they're kind of a misunderstanding out there in industry, the social potential of XR and immersive technology.

00:07:54: There's huge, huge potential but I think it also has something to do with society itself.

00:08:00: we live in a society that is highly individualized And It becomes even more individualized every day.

00:08:08: That's also why i think what we create resonates.

00:08:14: A lot of people want to join what we do because you can feel some sort of hunger in society.

00:08:20: We don't have, I don't know like the big teams... The big narratives.. The meaning of life.

00:08:26: religion doesn't play a huge part in peoples day-to-day lives anymore but we all want to connect with each other But also on a cultural level With this society that were apart off.

00:08:40: so if people joined something that we make and technology becomes a portal in which they can join through technology, then you can feel the people are... Yeah.

00:08:52: It's like this threshold to new world or living tomorrow.

00:08:58: They're unconnected And have technology.

00:09:01: In a sense it creates also meaning.

00:09:04: We tell story about big teams.

00:09:07: I think what's also very interesting is the paradox between like, the hocus pocus of new technologies and how.

00:09:16: i think we at least try to use them as a tool To recreate The wonder an amazement Of the normal world.

00:09:26: Of the everyday World where if you are A child And You discover The laws of physics, for the first time you fall.

00:09:35: There's gravity there is stuff that burns... ...there are water and natural elements like wind.

00:09:44: It actually quite magical all this stuff And we tend to forget it somehow.

00:09:51: if you alter maybe only small aspects of reality then You experience completely a new and at least For us, I think the technology is not about creating futuristic stuff that has nothing to do with our everyday reality.

00:10:12: It's more about recreating this amazement for what IS a reality and what is life?

00:10:22: And how magical it is to be speaking to one another and have images in your head vital in shaping society and the way we think, can act.

00:10:36: In this world.

00:10:37: so it's I Think is quite crucial like how?

00:10:41: We think and how we imagine things.

00:10:44: now i think we have an idea of The ideas behind your work gets.

00:10:48: let's make a bit more tangible And talk about one Of you recent projects.

00:10:52: table dialogues would if I You know walked into that experience for the very first time without knowing anything About.

00:11:01: And what would I encounter?

00:11:03: What kind of journey, which you invite me and other people into.

00:11:27: And while we are walking in circles and this theater space, the light dims.

00:11:36: An odioscape starts playing... ...and we center around a sculpture.. ..and the sculpture is actually some sort of

00:11:45: teapot!

00:11:46: And inside to tea.

00:11:48: it's not ordinary tea It's pieces of wood, birch, ginger other strange ingredients….

00:11:56: …And actually made a tea out various trees of life.

00:12:00: But yeah, we of course know that it's drinkable but a lot people they feel uncomfortable.

00:12:06: They're like how are really drinking pieces chunks of wood?

00:12:10: So we don't say anything.

00:12:12: the light dims We all sit down with drink to tea and actually were building a bridge to go into this other dimension Into these other worlds.

00:12:21: so I think we try to combine very analogue Very tangible real life stuff The chair wood, the tea with more ephemerical stuff in VR.

00:12:35: So bridge building is very important to get this sense of.

00:12:40: we're all in this together?

00:12:41: Yes and then at a certain point in time We bring out the VR glasses And everyone gets headset on their face And in the beginning, it's quite dark where you are.

00:12:55: In this new realm...in this digital realm It is quite dark and there only one little circle of light in the middle A beam!

00:13:07: A glowing beam.

00:13:08: But then we instruct people to investigate this New World Like what's possible?

00:13:15: Use your hands Actually before they got a headset on their head.

00:13:21: I am giving kind of a good example, but it's almost like a choreography where i stand on a pedestal and put on a headset.

00:13:30: And you see me do stuff!

00:13:32: But the audience has no clue what I'm doing.

00:13:35: They can only guess at what i am doing, but it's quite

00:13:38: awkward.

00:13:38: It is beautiful because Robert does this in a beginning without saying a word so he opens his hand He looks around and changes perspective And you really see that people feel uncomfortable Because he wears the headset.

00:13:50: So sometimes when he reaches out... ...he also doesn't see how far his hands come.

00:13:55: Sometimes he touches people by their nose or ears When they do it for second time.

00:14:01: Then he starts saying phrases, like when he opens his hand.

00:14:05: He says to make a fire and all of the sudden people realize ah All these gesticulations are actually it's some sort of foreshadowing Of real things that you can do in the VR.

00:14:17: Yeah We're trying to prep people to use their imagination.

00:14:20: basically first You see it in your mind's eye And then you will see it In real life.

00:14:28: And we use hand tracking, so that's quite essential in this piece.

00:14:33: That your hands are tracked and certain gestures of your hand or actual like interactive elements.

00:14:40: So like Frank said if you put your palm up You will see in the VR a flame In the palm of your head?

00:14:58: and there are cave paintings on the walls of this cave.

00:15:01: And actually, The Cave Paintings is a bit like an IKEA instruction manual where you can see what to do in these worlds.

00:15:09: What's possible?

00:15:10: You could take a seat or plant a seed Or climb stairs up-and down.

00:15:16: It's all part of our tutorial But we designed it as a tutorial but for the audience... ...it doesn't feel that its'a tutorial.

00:15:26: Like Robert, his gesticulations feel almost like a dance.

00:15:30: It's awkward but also a little bit funny.

00:15:32: and then when they're in the cave there are this you know between hell and heaven these worlds very liminal world But The Cave paintings are foreshadowing.

00:15:43: so it is raising a child.

00:15:47: somehow we were raising people.

00:15:48: We were guiding them into VR World And Then When They Were All In The VR

00:15:55: Then we let them go like with children at a certain point.

00:15:59: You need to let it go and then accidents can happen, but actually usually all... They literally

00:16:06: let go of

00:16:07: you?

00:16:07: Yeah yeah!

00:16:08: We don't want to spoil everything that happens.

00:16:11: or maybe just too short explanations.

00:16:14: One regarding the title and format, Table Dialogue.

00:16:18: It's not your first project with this title.

00:16:20: so what is behind the table?

00:16:22: dialogues concept?

00:16:23: And then maybe just as a brief teaser for whats happening after you... leave the cave and know what you can do in VR.

00:16:33: because of the name of their experience is wood.

00:16:35: And as I already said, it's kind of a hiking trip.

00:16:38: but maybe just one or two sentences about what could happen after leaving the cave without spoiling too much?

00:16:46: But first the table dialogues.

00:16:48: Table dialogue started like many XR projects during COVID time, but actually the roots are even before Covid.

00:17:00: But this corona period really pushed us in this new direction to explore this medium.

00:17:07: and first we created a piece called earth And later on We created a peace called fire.

00:17:15: now there is wood and Actually There's two more pieces that we want to create in these cyclists That our water and metal.

00:17:26: They together, those five natural elements make up the Wu Xing.

00:17:32: Probably I'm pronouncing it completely wrong but It's a kind of the Chinese equivalent of earth wind and fire like everything in universe is made-up Of dynamic between those elements.

00:17:48: But the cool thing with the chineseis that also transforms.

00:17:51: so if you combine two You get another one, so there is also communication between the various elements.

00:17:59: And for us it was important from the beginning that we somehow use technology in order to connect the audience.

00:18:07: So in every table dialogues unit that we make We have a different sort of connection.

00:18:13: like in fire people sit around a symbolic campfire and they are connected by some sort of spatial audio.

00:18:21: The fire starts to talk But they can also time travel.

00:18:26: They don't know it in the beginning with recordings, so they listen to recordings of previous groups and they consent their voice into the future with recordings that are being played for future generations.

00:18:40: we call them And Earth is more some sort of card game where people dive into a cosmos that they create and the cosmos is very tangible again.

00:18:52: It's black clay, so they use salt chalk-black clay to make real tangible cosmos but it's empty.

00:19:03: with the use of a headset They can dive in their empty cosmos and kickstart life Cosmogenesis, like... Yeah.

00:19:16: And wood is actually centered around the concept of The Tree Of Life.

00:19:21: Like what happens when there's a big cataclysm?

00:19:24: The world is completely destroyed by disaster.

00:19:29: But then There Is This Concept Which Comes Back In A Lot Of Religions and Philosophies Around World.

00:19:38: It's like this rejuvenating power where there is a little seedling that will always sprout again.

00:19:46: And I think conceptually the piece is bit of question about technology, Like Is Technology our best bet as are now contemporary day tree-of life?

00:20:02: Do we bet on technology to be our Tree Of Life when things go wrong?

00:20:08: Or do we need to kind of reconnect with nature and preserve nature, To find our Tree Of Life in the natural world?

00:20:21: And I think those two concepts don't necessarily are much mutually exclusive.

00:20:28: But there is this tendency... like people, Elon Musk and others who believe that we will need to venture out in space... ...to survive as a human species.

00:20:40: So our tree of life is really technology and technological advances?

00:20:47: Which was also fun because if you look at all the old stories or mythologies they needed technology so it could proceed into a forward direction.

00:20:59: but technology is also at the source of destruction, you know?

00:21:02: Like with The Roman Empire they have new technologies and new ways of brewing.

00:21:08: And then they brew lead into their drinks... ...and all go crazy!

00:21:12: I know it's cutting corners here but in a way technology steers forward.. ..but it also diminishes at the same time that exactly what the play about the Tree Of Life is cyclical so its never an end point.

00:21:30: Vibe of the performance sits in everything, people walking circles.

00:21:35: The tea is being remade even virtual reality world built like a circular onion.

00:21:43: You have at the core the cave and then you have natural worlds And then you've got two moons A moon in the sky and a moon below ground.

00:21:53: So this circular motion it's key to understanding the play.

00:21:59: So come and play people if you hear this comment.

00:22:03: Great, so I think that's enough to make people definitely want do it without spotting too much.

00:22:09: one thing that i really found fascinating is how much you thought about and how carefully you choreographed the transition into VR.

00:22:18: So it's not just people enter this theater, give a short intro and then everyone gets their VR glasses.

00:22:24: but there is process in its kind of part-of-the-play already like they are all way to VR.

00:22:30: why do think so essential Do this bridge building so carefully and also the tutorial in a way that it doesn't feel like a tutorial.

00:22:38: We say, okay now you use your left finger into this or right hand to do that but because It makes things for you more complicated What's there thing about?

00:22:49: Yeah definitely I think There is also this tradition In video games where usually we would do A tutorial level And then you would play The real game.

00:23:00: Nowadays Games Traditional computer games are also much more usually centered around, yeah you just dropped into a story.

00:23:11: You don't really know what's going on and will figure it out along the way.

00:23:15: I think its all part of creating this sense of actual immersion because when start talking about buttons or screens then your not immersed anymore.

00:23:28: I guess when you start, uh... You watch a film and suddenly you see the play-and-the pause button again.

00:23:36: They're thrown out of the immersion.

00:23:39: so that's one very crucial aspect i think where you carefully craft this immersion even before your actually in the VR headset Immersion is much more than just seeing those visuals in the headset, it's a whole package.

00:23:58: And I think that something tends to be forgotten sometimes especially in XR festivals or setups where there are just VR headsets and yeah... Just put them on your face?

00:24:11: It's not about that!

00:24:12: Its' just same as this whole discussion about cinemas.

00:24:16: will cinemas disappear because we have all these streamings sites, Netflix and stuff.

00:24:22: But if you go to a cinema You're not only there to see the movie your dare-to be together with other people like I saw during COVID this Nicholas Cage slasher movie.

00:24:34: very bad but it has Nicolas Cage in It And The Audience Liked Cage.

00:24:39: so I enjoyed the movie because i had all this synergy in their room and you can hear people laugh, breathe.

00:24:48: So I re-watched Nicholas Cage's movie a few weeks ago with my partner And yeah we turned it off after forty five minutes Not because...

00:24:56: It was not the same.

00:24:57: Yeah, but I built something in my mind and it just build up with blood.

00:25:04: And now when i re-watched it.. ..I didn't have the entourage.

00:25:08: So you need to entourage?

00:25:10: Its'nt only bridge building But the entourage makes special.

00:25:14: If u go drinking with your friends Then you look back on this night.

00:25:19: You're like oh my god we did this.

00:25:22: if you are drinking all alone at home Then yeah, even if the liquor is good then it's not the same.

00:25:27: You need to friends that are

00:25:29: with vacation on holiday.

00:25:32: That cheese or wine was so exceptional and then at home you bring them back home.

00:25:39: It's not bad but its' not like wow in France when I was...

00:25:45: Absolutely!

00:25:47: The wine in France tastes better than at home.

00:25:51: Great.

00:25:52: Another thing that you mentioned many times, now when you explain what to do and how I do things is That you want make

00:26:00: people

00:26:01: feel awkward or uncertain like When give them the tea they don't know.

00:26:08: Is it really drinkable?

00:26:09: What kind of stuff is there?

00:26:11: Now?

00:26:12: most entertainment Experiences, creators try to remove friction.

00:26:16: You know no irritation should be smooth and comfortable but you create this kind of discomfort.

00:26:24: is it just for fun or do you think that has an effect on the audience?

00:26:28: It's sure.

00:26:29: as a fact in the audience I never realize myself.

00:26:33: now when asked the question Robert will read a lot of psychoanalysis like Jung and a lot of things that come back, not only in psychoanalysis but also like old rituals from ancient Egypt.

00:26:47: That is you need to let go off your own ego.

00:26:50: so you need deconstructs confidence because if too confident then sit on your ego.

00:26:58: So in the way it deconstruct's and be alert again Then you're in a heightened state opening the portal, broadening the door to enter.

00:27:12: So in a way if you're in this heightened state of alertness then new things can occur.

00:27:19: so maybe we do it subconsciously I'm not really sure but... It's kind of fun put people into awkward position because magical thing happens

00:27:32: But it's a sweet spot also.

00:27:34: If

00:27:35: you make them too awkward, they will become kind of defensive and start to build like a wall off mental defense or safety.

00:27:47: but if their just completely at ease then they don't have this heightened awareness.

00:27:55: when your think that you hear something And then you're a bit distressed by, what is this that I'm hearing?

00:28:05: Like whatever in your house and you hear as quick.

00:28:10: You cannot really understand the squeak!

00:28:13: Then you are in this heightened state of awareness like... What IS

00:28:18: this?!

00:28:21: I should know because it's a bit disturbing that i don't know.

00:28:25: It is the power of projection and suggestion, if people are uncomfortable.

00:28:29: they think this will happen but then something else happens... And then you're like

00:28:33: huh!

00:28:36: This sweet spot what we were after?

00:28:39: You cannot achieve exactly right every time with everyone But at least I think that's a goal of good art also.

00:28:51: Art is really almost hurting or pushing people away, it can be very valuable but problematic in the sense there isn't anything to bring you back into real life.

00:29:11: It's like pendulum motion.

00:29:15: It's also about letting go of controller.

00:29:17: Everybody wants to be in control all the time.

00:29:20: if you're a little bit off, a little uncomfortable then it is so nice to let go of controls sometimes like going to sleep.

00:29:27: otherwise you cannot fall into sleep.

00:29:30: People not necessarily want to be in control all the time, but they have to.

00:29:34: So then it might feel good too.

00:29:36: let go on this kind of experience now a lot.

00:29:39: what you're saying is about giving people guidance through the journey their experience.

00:29:43: and if I'm going we talked You said that without this guidance, so people can consume AVR world very quickly.

00:29:53: If you just let them enter on their own and then in sixty seconds they've seen... They have the feeling if they see everything And than they lose to magic.

00:30:03: I thought it sounded a bit like critique of some things That happened today In The Digital Culture More probably not only in VR But there's Just so much Consumption Things that are made quite quick Consumption without really getting immersed into anything.

00:30:20: Do you think that digital media is too fast today leaves

00:30:25: a

00:30:25: little room for mystery, magic slowness and this kind of immersion?

00:30:30: Yes And I think that putting a goal Is something problematic because we did A lot of tryouts.

00:30:38: so We work iterative So We do an iteration, then we test it with audience.

00:30:45: We collect our feedback and make a new iteration And did many dozens of iterations before we had our premiere Especially in the young audience like in Bruges The city of Bruges where we did iterations on a digital festival.

00:31:02: A lot of young people were there and they really have the expectation that we're going to do Robert & Frank VR XR game.

00:31:09: So we got some sort of critique because they said like what is the goal?

00:31:14: What is there to solve?

00:31:15: I already planted seeds trees started to grow.

00:31:19: I found out about an ancient language, um i climbed a ladder so I reached The maximum Of all the possible things that I could do.

00:31:29: What did I solve?

00:31:30: What Did I get?

00:31:31: so people dive into our world with the expectation That they're gonna Get something.

00:31:39: And for us it was really a wake-up call because we want to connect people.

00:31:42: There's no winning, there is nobody who can like celebrate that they're the winner and others are losers.

00:31:50: so in a way... We need take away idea of getting somewhere you know?

00:31:57: The whole wood experience is the thing!

00:32:00: It almost this Taoistic principle You know?

00:32:03: Like journey is end goal.

00:32:08: In our society, especially in games everybody needs to win all the time and get somewhere.

00:32:13: So it's kind of dangerous because yeah you can also see it in supermarkets The day after today everything is winning.

00:32:21: You buy this one and this one And you'll get your scratch ticket then you can.

00:32:25: when this Yeah, you don't need to win Everything

00:32:29: or

00:32:29: anything?

00:32:30: All the time.

00:32:32: Also I think It's about this To go slower makes you more conscious, you could say.

00:32:40: Like your experience just more of the landscape when you are on foot than in a fighter jet plane?

00:32:49: You can say if VR is the fighter-jet plane of technology and it goes somewhere very fast then... ...you didn't experience anything about the landscape that you crossed.

00:33:02: And it's a bit the same, I guess with gamification where you have certain goal and you're just trying to get through that goal as efficiently as possible.

00:33:12: Just go into next goal.

00:33:15: then you lose so much along way of awareness.

00:33:20: how magical is actually be in this cave while your'e just in dark theater space make fire with your hands and then walk through walls.

00:33:34: Just this idea that you can walk through a wall is not little feat, it's craziness but you need to kind of build up this temple.

00:33:46: where have this heightened awareness I guess

00:33:50: And also its an attitude in live as well?

00:33:52: i had four year old daughter.

00:33:54: she only realized now the last couple weeks that grass consists out of individual pieces of grass.

00:34:02: So all of a sudden she was like, yeah this cross is green and we were laying down on the grass... And it's as if you saw that real life resolution off every cross.

00:34:13: how do you say?

00:34:14: Threats, gross threats.

00:34:16: so I said oh my god!

00:34:18: It's not just your green surface.

00:34:21: If people are like.. She's child.

00:34:22: but if already have in real-life imagine VR is a bit or a cubit, there's world behind the world.

00:34:34: Before we also come to an end of our experience that we are still somehow in with this discussion I wanted you talk about one of your conceptual ideas and it said virtual spaces aren't artificial overlays but more like dream spaces that have always existed and the VR headsets are just the portals to get into them.

00:35:00: That sounds almost mythological, maybe you can unpack an idea a bit?

00:35:07: I was huge fan of it!

00:35:10: We were in our atelier.

00:35:12: we had other artists there talked often with is Peter Ars and he was busy with a project that was called Dreamer, the one who listens to The Dream.

00:35:23: And funny thing it's also concept in Taoism for example the Tao, the road... It has always been here!

00:35:34: As humans we only get a glimpse of it like if you go to sleep.. The dream have always be there.

00:35:42: So there's one eternal dream, and the dream dreams itself.

00:35:46: And humans are merely devices.

00:35:49: it's like a radio that tunes into the FM or AM frequency... ...and you get a glimpse of broadcasts but can never hear the entire broadcast.

00:36:00: so for me What we made in virtual reality, if you say the tree of life is in this virtual realm and you have this cyclical motion of creation and destruction.

00:36:12: Then audience members... If they participate in wood and go into these VR realm They can only see one episode of creation & destruction And another episode will maybe be different.

00:36:27: So it's really a philosophical philosophical thing where people let go of the here and now, they connect with something like an echo that echoes for eternity.

00:36:42: And I think in our play we created grandmothers their big sculptures... ...and the sculptures are visualized as some sort of people without faces but their bodies consist out of stairs And the cool thing is that if they step onto each other's, their staircase figures.

00:37:01: They can climb on to each other and reach the sky!

00:37:04: These figures are part of this endless world.

00:37:08: so yeah...they watch what happens..They don't really intervene....and I dunno like the dream grandmothers and they watch over humans who dive in.

00:37:23: You don't want to give the people who join the journey a goal, but maybe you do have goals with your projects and experiences that you create.

00:37:33: So when people leave after for example The Wood Project what do you hope stays with them afterwards?

00:37:42: I think in best case scenario it's kind of feeling broader than certain certain rational concepts or certain rational insights.

00:37:56: I think it's this feeling of, yeah connection to say once again... Or this feeling having shared something that was a little like beyond everyday life Like the feeling connectedness what some people describe when they have a good drug trip, maybe the same feeling afterwards that you go home and still feel somehow connected to things in this other reality.

00:38:38: Maybe when you sleep at night your dream is not only about The people that joined you to the theater space or the drink.

00:38:49: You had afterwards, but also This grandmother dreaming figure.

00:38:54: are this one person That was sitting next to you drinking the tea and having a funny face?

00:39:01: Are those things kind of become part?

00:39:05: Of who you are?

00:39:07: yeah

00:39:07: great I think it's fascinating get your using modern technology to create kind of very a good way, basic feelings that are kind of lost because our digitized world also.

00:39:22: It's like as you said Frank with the technology can lead to progress but also opposite.

00:39:30: Now looking ahead is there anything working on or dreaming about right now?

00:39:35: Anything upcoming from Robert and Frank?

00:39:37: we could look forward too.

00:39:40: I was just thinking before answering your question that it's almost like an antidote of a poison, where you need bit of the poison to be an antidotes for the poison.

00:39:52: Like with snake bites... You need the poison of this snake bite to treat the snake bite!

00:39:58: It's like you need technology somehow as an antidot for overdoze and technology.

00:40:04: That

00:40:06: is good image.

00:40:06: yeah

00:40:07: We are looking forward to many things.

00:40:11: Not making yet, we're doing a little bit of research about water.

00:40:16: it's the new table dialogues performance that will make.

00:40:20: and You know, like as artists we sometimes have the impression that were not a hundred percent in charge or in control because water.

00:40:28: The last couple of months We do many projects with a solo exhibition where making sculptures out of clay and what there is?

00:40:35: Like this team in all these creations.

00:40:39: So for me it feels little bit like the cosmos is foreshadowing stuff In our surroundings That may lead to the creation Of the new table dialogues participatory experience.

00:40:51: So I have the feeling that we're boy scouts, they are tracking to track in a way of water.

00:40:59: you know like The Hints were following the leads.

00:41:02: and yeah We're doing a few performances In our local botanical garden here in Ghent Where we created the large-scale sculpture That is currently being overgrown by hop plants.

00:41:18: Yes

00:41:19: And then we're making

00:41:21: a ritual for an arts and science community in Leuven.

00:41:25: We have talks with people from Germany, Erlangen to do new participatory play next year.

00:41:31: so the pipeline is rather full!

00:41:36: The Belgian coastline also.

00:41:38: on the mid-summer day they celebrate the longest day... ...and will be doing very long participatory performance On the beach, on the Belgian Beach.

00:41:53: So if you have to go on holidays to Belgium I don't know why but...

00:41:59: A lot of people go to the Belgian coast.

00:42:01: yeah a lot of Germans also right?

00:42:04: Sure, and if not then hopefully something happens in Erlangen where I studied.

00:42:09: so i would love that.

00:42:11: Shout out to Erlagen!

00:42:13: Absolutely great the water table directs are definitely coming.

00:42:18: thank you for those insights into your work.

00:42:22: of course we talked about specific projects but there were many inspirations from other creators.

00:42:28: then learn from when they create their experiences, because you're already kind of so long into this that have really defined and experienced what works how or why we do stuff.

00:42:41: And I think it was very helpful for other creators.

00:42:43: So thank you so much all those insights!

00:42:46: Thank you for having us maybe i wanted to add if your not locally where were are every month uploading a one-minute video of our activities.

00:42:58: So that's kind of online, ongoing little exhibition... That is also digitally experienceable you could say.

00:43:08: The

00:43:08: artwork of the month?

00:43:09: Yes!

00:43:10: Perfect we'll definitely include it into our show notes.

00:43:12: Thank You!

00:43:13: Yeah thank you so much.

00:43:15: There was episode seventy nine of the new reality podcast by wonnie.

00:43:18: nine and dicks are up a barrier.

00:43:20: if you enjoyed the episode please rate it subscribe and share with others.

00:43:24: You'll find links in the show notes if you want to learn more about the work of Robert and Frank, or Franken-Robot.

00:43:29: And the credits?

00:43:30: Onee-Nine is a home for future optimists—for people who want make their world better through new ideas on technology!

00:43:36: Besides this podcast, Onee Nine also includes an online magazine, community platform and events.

00:43:45: XR Bivaria was founded to support and grow the XR community in Bavaria, help advance their development and adoption of XR applications.

00:43:52: And increase visibility as an XR location at xr-bivaria.d.

00:43:59: This podcast is made possible through funding from the Bavarian State Ministry for Digital Affairs.

00:44:04: Many thanks for your support!

00:44:05: See you next time.